Our nanny is a Michigan alum and is already indoctrinating Franco in the Wolverine way. It makes my heart swell to look at these pictures because Michigan is a great school. I’d be so proud if Franco went to Michigan or Cal or Stanford, but that is his decision to make and not mine. What parent wouldn’t want their child to be educated and graduate from college?
While I am a fervent believer in education, I also do not think college is for everyone, especially now when the expense does not often justify the result!
I tweeted the following last week and it generated such debate that I wanted to bring the discussion here into my blog, given that education is an important topic that I cover.
Here are my personal thoughts:
College is one of the most important investment decisions a student will make. If, as my Tweet indicates, one-third of college grads do not think college prepared them for employment, then what a waste of money! College is not about attending football games or getting trashed at a fraternity party. Sure that is part of the overall experience, but the only reason someone should go to college is to be a gainfully employed citizen once they finish. If not, why go?!
I am concerned that too many high school students are told that they have to go to college. That it’s simply the way it has to be. I laugh when I hear about all these parents who are shepherding their kids through the college application process. I’m sorry, but if your kid cannot fill out these applications on their own, then they should be repeating high school!
College is the status quo and if you want to break out of the cycle (i.e., 9-5 job, 2 weeks vacation), then you obviously have to take risks and do something different for God’s sake!
Oh but Catherine, you’re screaming right now, that’s exactly what you did. Exactimundo. The “status quo” was the right path for me because I love the corporate life. Coming into work every day, in my cubicle office, to stare at a monitor for hours on end makes me happy. I am doing exactly what I set out to do.
I believe college is worth it if you can get into a top school. Highly-ranked schools are competitive, where you will be in class with peers who are driven and motivated. They have massive alumni networks which you can use to your advantage for internships and your career post-graduation. They recruit the best talent in teaching and students, and that is where the donations flow.
Paying the price of private college education at a low-ranked school is akin to flushing money down the toilet. Sure there are exceptions. Scholarships, financial aid, etc., but I question the value of going to Generic University when your chances of employment are equivalent to or even less than going to a state school.
The college system as we know it is unsustainable. This is a new age where there are many different paths to take, and children shouldn’t feel forced into college and saddled with debt. These days, why not go straight to a paycheck? What high-growth startup wouldn’t want to hire an eager high school grad with a high SAT score?! No college diploma necessary!
I compiled all of the comments from my Facebook feed into the first comment below. Great points and worth a read.
Excited to get other opinions. Please feel free to comment.
Anupam Palvia
exactly. 4 year college degrees have been overhyped; government should stop promoting and supporting them so aggressively so the market can naturally choose better training programs
Melissa Flayer Gurman
Interesting – what are your thoughts?? The one thing that I think Berkeley did really well is prepare me for the big wide world out there. It showed me that real life is competitive and you need to work hard if you want to succeed. While my classes didn’t directly prepare me for my job (I studied the sciences and went into consulting), I think the skills in how to think, problem solve, perseverance, hard work and dedication definitely prepared me for employment.
Fred Lee
How does this mesh with the 45% of college grads that are underemployed?
Seems your camp is over employed ..
Melissa Flayer Gurman
I read an article earlier this week similar to this http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-roi-colleges/ – I can’t find the exact article but I thought the explanation of ROI was interesting. I think you need to be smart about the college you choose, what you choose to study and if you are really ready to attend college. College is not for everyone and not for everyone at 18. It can be a HUGE waste of time and money if you are not ready. I think there is something to be said for attending a junior college or even working for a while before you make a decision on what and where you want to study. And for some…a trade school is a much better option.
Catherine Gacad
people who succeed in life do so because they are intrinsically motivated to be rockstars. i went to great schools (as did everyone who is commenting on this stream. that’s how we all know each other.), and surely that background has benefited me. however, i am almost certain that had i skipped college i could have still been successful. for example, i could have started out as a teller in high school, not gone to college, and ended up in investor relations! this is not rocket science.
that said, most of america is not intrinsically motivated and hence going to college and spending a gazilion dollars, wasting time on classes they’re not interested in, not knowing what they want to do when they graduate, and ending up with a huge burden of debt is a waste; which is why i constantly shake my head and ask, “what is the point?!” might as well go straight to internships/employment and skip the “education.”
ps. the way education is currently structured is unsustainable. i am betting on a new and improved model (some kind of hybrid of internship/online accredited learning). i feel so strongly about this that i am saving zero for my son’s college education. college and the value he hopes to derive from it will have to be his decision and his own money (debt) to spend.
Melissa Flayer Gurman
I agree with all you say Cathee and while it makes perfect sense, I also know how not having a degree at times limits progression in many companies. If you will be starting your own company, not so important but if working in another’s company might be more important.
Camilla M. Mann
It IS interesting. Where is was not a question that I was going to college, my parents have said that it’s not a must for my boys. “They don’t need a degree to be successful.” Times have certainly changed.
Luba
What Melissa Flayer Gurman said. Especially if you have a corporate job.
Chris Raphael
Universities do a poor job. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago you could walk in somewhere with a degree from a great school and get the job, but employers these days care less about broad education and more about very specific experience.
Halt Fouroeight
I recently just got my 3rd college degree and graduated a year and half ago. What I saw was disgusting. cheating was rampant. Students circulated the previous semester’s homework, quizzes, exams, and finals. I’ve seen students take pictures of final exams on the day of the final, send it via text message, and wait for their friends to give them the answers.
Lena Sullesta Jessen
There is a good bit of U if C research, though, that has found that kids who go to college earn more money on average than kids who do not, and also, on average, kids who complete 4 year programs earn more than kids who complete 2 year programs. So it seems there is value to going to college vs. not going. However, I think the data is based on urban school kids and so I am not sure if the data would behave differently in non-urban school settings.
Halt Fouroeight
In my graduating class, 80% of the students collaborated to bribe the professor so we didn’t have to take the final exam. The class bought the professor a dinner gift card, a Costco sized Johnny Walk Blue Label, and one of the girls who masterminded the idea gave him a kiss. IMO, it’s not the school that’s failing, it’s the students who are failing themselves. I know a handful of people who I graduated with who didn’t have trouble finding a job.
Cyrnni Ariate
So many interesting perspectives.
On the finance side, I wonder if there is a study showing the ROI of college vs the ROI of income producing investments.
On a lighter note – I wonder if any stay at home mom/dads have considered home schooling their kids all the way through college. So much cheaper.
Michaela Murphy
If nothing else, though, having great schools on your resume serves as an excellent shorthand for that rock star status. I was recently hiring and went with someone who has been out of the workforce for fifteen years – while that might be cause for concern for some, the fact that she has a BA from Stanford and an MBA from Kellogg made me more than comfortable that she’d be able to pick up whatever I threw at her right away, because she’s clearly got to be bright. If she had, as you say, gone straight to internships/employment and skipped the education, who knows if I’d have been as comfortable bringing her onto my team?…
Patrick Weseman
Ok, I went to a hood high school (Tennyson-Hayward) and not a great college (Cal-State Hayward-when it was Hayward) and what really prepared me for employment was the four years I spent in the U.S. Navy. Dealing with people and situations. Figuring out ways to get the job done and (I will say this-growing up the way I did) using your resources to the max are skills that colleges do not teach. Also, a colleges don’t teach basic humanity as the great basketball coach Al McGuire once said “spend six months as a bartender and six months as a cabdriver. Then they would really be educated”.Being an educator, I think that our system of education is horrible. In most districts, we have junked the trades (I had to take two years of shop classes to graduate high school) and forced everybody on the A-G track (UC requirements). I know several of my high school classmates who are super successful in life who are crafstman (everything from organic farmer to metal workers to car repair shop owners) and we have told kids that these are not honorable professions. Instead we create degrees like Construction Management (I have some friends who have worked in the field for over 25 years and are now general contractors who laugh at that) and devalue work experience. Finally, I am going to say that the education that I received at my ghetto-___ high school is far superior to crap that passes for education that what my kids have received at their state of the art, suburan high school. Sorry for being so long.
Fred Lee
Catherine Gacad I think it would be pretty tough to land a gig in investor relations without a degree– you need credibility in that position and it’s an incredibly important role as a liaison between institutional investors and senior management.
From a teller you could probably work into something like the treasury or another internal facing position, but front office would be a tougher sell
Catherine Gacad
i will concede that it is difficult, but not impossible. in fact, there are direct reports to our CEO who started out as tellers. these are people who are business heads…not his admin! of course, prestigious degrees confer drive, ambition, success, and are a major stamp of approval. but i am making a point about the masses, not about people who went to the top schools because for the most part, those people will do well in life. but for everyone else, what is the value of college when 1/3 of grads say it was pointless (because if college doesn’t prepare you for work, what is the F*ing point) and when 71% of grads have an average of $30k of student loan debt?!
Michael Rosen
At the high end, there is a lot of signaling and networking. In terms of actual learning, it is possible to get out of school without picking up much. To the point of what many have said, learning is more about intrinsic motivation. I believe that on-line education (MOOCs + Google + Wikipedia + WhateverElseComesInTheNext20Years) will eliminate most of the “body of knowledge” coursework. (Accounting 101, Physics 101, Calculus, Programming Python, etc) It can’t teach things like skepticism, testing hypothesis, running a research project, etc. In this sense there is still room for higher education, though it may look very different. As a parent, I am concerned that there is an increasing concentration in opportunity, and educational signaling is a part of it.
Fred Lee
Catherine Gacad but those tellers turned business heads have degrees no?
Chris Raphael
Some companies tend to heavily promote internally. I have seen ads where a basic job requirement is “Five years experience with XX company’s brand standards.” So even if you’re a rockstar somewhere else, and have more experience and talent, good luck, bc the job will go to an internal candidate. But…the universities should be partnering with such companies on placing grads into career tracks. Broad classes can teach a student how to think//solve problems–but what else does the candidate need to know that is practical that the employer needs?
Other companies (say tech) may care more about talent and innovation. But again…I agree there should be some partnerships. Academics tend to ignore what employers are looking for.
But in either case, from how I’ve seen and heard it, usually the hardest thing about a Fortune 500 or a top-20 university is simply getting in.
Michaela Murphy
I think it’s a huge leap to assume that the grads who say they weren’t prepared for the workforce would agree that that rendered their education “useless.” My undergrad education didn’t directly prepare me for the work I did in my 20s – I was a drama major! However, it did train me how to ask probing questions and solve problems – and it left me with killer presentation skills and a great ability to bluff (er, improv) when I needed to. Further, it sure came in handy a decade later, post-MBA, when I landed as the director of marketing at a theater.
Scott Sharabura
Junior colleges, trade schools, online learning, apprenticeships, etc. always sound appealing when you’re talking about other people’s kids. Nobody ever thinks that their own little darling ought to attend. (Except, apparently, Catherine. )
Michaela Murphy
Eh, I think I’d support my kids if junior college, trade school, etc. was what they wanted for themselves. More importantly, I think I’d actively encourage them to consider delaying higher ed. Why do we trust 18-year-olds to know at that age what the best school, major, career, etc. is for them?
Andrea Sparrey
Perhaps there’s a different question… how could things be done differently in college so that people DO feel prepared. There’s a major overhaul required in career-related programming that could complement what people learn in the classroom. It’s a great time and place to explore (IF students have the tools to explore). Not that the exploration can’t be done elsewhere. I just don’t think it makes sense to write off a whole institution just because one outcome isn’t achieved.
Honestly, I continue to be surprised that more schools don’t adopt a co-op education approach. It helped me to truly explore careers and changed my path tremendously.
Michael Rosen
Wall Street used to not require a degree, but that’s changed a lot. (Though perhaps the MBA is losing some luster now)
Jae Chung
First, let me say I rather have my daughter become a self-sufficient plumber than an unemployed lawyer.
Second, I don’t see college only as further education or a means to get a job but also for personal development. You’re living on your own for the first time (albeit in a cocoon). You’re meeting a much more diverse group of people (not just ethnicity and socioeconomic background, but interests and aspirations as well). I would say half my learning in college came outside the classroom. Is it worth the cost? For me, without a doubt.
At the same time, college has become so expensive that I think students have to understand that they either need to get scholarships, go to cheaper schools, or get a high paying job afterwards. If one wants to major in medieval history at some expensive, tier 3 private college, by all means go ahead, but don’t complain when only low-paying jobs are available. Instead double major in something that can help land a good job.
Interesting comment thread. I echo the thoughts of your last commenter – the college experience is much more than the classroom education. But it is what you make it. Four years of beer pong and and doing the bare minimum, or four years of making connections and pushing your limits and expanding your comfort zone? Make use of all the resources available to you, and get the most bang for your buck.
We are in the thick of the college search. State schools are top on the list. No one will convince me that a $240,000 education is more than two times as good as an $80,000 one.
Definitely a very interesting conversation you spawned here and admit that I can definitely see both sides of the coin here. I will say this that I was apathetic to college at 18 and went because I had to. I did two years and went out to work fulltime realizing that I needed further education to go further in life in general. When I did return, I was much more involved in my education and definitely made so much more out of the experience. That said I do think it is what you make of it for the most part.
I am on the other side now as a parent and I do see the development of my daughter (minus the tattoo) as she is away from her brother for the first time (they only spent one year not in the same school).
Somebody commented about state schools and my daughter choose CSU-Monterey Bay (ugly campus) and it the second smallest CSU but she getting to do more stuff as freshman than most seniors do which is cool.
Also, I made her (will make her brother next year) take out a small loan and will make both do so because it means they are now invested in their education because I firmly believe “the more the parents pay, the more the kid plays.”
I hope that changes are happening now (like free community college for all) so that college is attainable by the time my kids are ready. People seem to think that college is all or nothing, but we need to remind kids that the vocational studies like paramedics, mechanics, real estate are could be lucrative, too.
The main point of a college degree is basically so that you can say you have one since that’s the piece of paper that is what employers want you to have. If college had cost what it does these days when I went I for sure probably would have gone the community college route first to save money but I think I still would have gone just because sometimes you need it just to get in the door regardless of how relevant it is to your job.
Franco is getting so big!! Don’t think I’ve ‘seen’ him in a while.
Total side note but your swerve logo covers up some of the text on your blog. I wasn’t sure if you knew. I only mention it because I really am interested in reading what you write!!
While I completely agree that college is not for everyone, I disagree that the only bar by which a successful college education should be judged is the quality of employment after graduation. What about education for education’s sake? The benefits of learning and opening one’s mind to new and different ideas. Learning to ask questions and critically evaluate answers? Of course, as Dana said, the richness of a college experience depends on the student to take advantage of opportunities. Perhaps this is too much to ask of most 18 -21 year olds. and then there is the hideously outrageous cost which either puts quality education out of reach or saddles graduates with crippling debt. Our nation’s reticence to support education is a disgrace.
I worry all the time but they’ll be fine. Just have to have the right information before making decisions and signing anything. My son has an interest in math and science and computers – so with the combination, college is probably best for him but we’ll see. 🙂 It’s good that at this stage, college isn’t a hard core requirement for employment anymore but you still need experience sooo it depends what you want to do with your life. I intend to complete my degree but I’m already in the hole and don’t have much left to go. Great topic Catherine! Have a great weekend -Iva
I don’t have many smart opinions to add (other than that Franco got so big and that my sister and her husband’s family are huge U. of Michigan fans) but I’m so curious as to the process these days.
It was even changing when I was 18. I went to Rutgers – a state school since I was a NJ resident and it was affordable. Even just a few years after I heard it was both harder to get into and the tuition skyrocketed. Yikes.
We are in the middle of this now as my oldest son is making decisions on where to attend college next year. We are lucky that he has gotten into his top choices, and now is just waiting on one more financial package before making his decision. He is planning to attend a small school. Since we didn’t visit any larger schools, I can’t speak to anything about that at all, but his top choices have a 100% and 96% placement rate for his major, and after visiting them I can see why. They have some unique opportunities that we didn’t see at some of the other schools we visited. He plans to major in computer science. One school has an impressive “lab” where the kids grouped into teams (this is all optional, and you can join any team you are interested in) to build robots and other things with potential technological advances; the other school has businesses that give their students real life problems to solve and they compete with other teams within the same school as well as other schools to find the best solution. At both schools they are getting real world hands on experience while in college, which makes them more marketable, not to mention an incredible learning experience. I would be very comfortable sending him to either place. I certainly didn’t get that sort of education when I was in school. I think kids today need to really look at what a school can offer them, and make a smart choice. I agree that college isn’t for everyone and you shouldn’t go just for the sake of going.